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cjpl203 5:56 Mon May 18
Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

Thread here:
http://www.the-wanderer.co.uk/boards/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=25890
Asked by a jounalist to give comment about Sam's tenure at Bolton, some interesting replies, including some who blame West Ham for giving there team the long ball tag in 2003 or thereabouts.

:^) 9:43 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

Alex V 3:50 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton
The thread was a good read. Of course Bolton fans will idolise him and that period - look at them since. Funny that none of them make the connection between Allardyce's poor youth development, and reliance on highly paid veterans, and what has happened to them after he left.

If you build nothing, you end up with nothing.

As I suspect we will find out.
__________________

Considering he built a side that went from Div 1 to a top ten side that qualified for Europe and had 4 youth academy products in it - I'd guess it's because there is little or no connection to their deterioration over 5 years under various lesser managers, resulting in relegation?

Sven Roeder 9:02 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

I think his inability to admit mistakes or what could be better is a major part of people's frustration.
To see we have had a great season is ludicrous. It has been patchy and lurched from excellent to unacceptably dull and pedestrian .
If he came out and admitted we have had poor periods and that he needs to look at how HE contributed to that and how he needs to look at what he could have done better people would cut him some slack.
Also if he said that due to our situation he had taken his eye off bringing through young players and that he would work on improving the quality of them and his role with developing them again people would appreciate him more. Bringing in young players as a last resort and in a way like Forest that seems designed to undermine them seems like petty point scoring.
A lot of the frustration is being told how great he is and how we should be happy. It just doesn't wash ... mainly because most fans can see it is PALPABLE bullshit.

Hammer and Pickle 8:56 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

Maybe they'll offer him a development squad manager's contract?

chim chim cha boo 8:49 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

Anyone who thinks the owners aren't interested in bringing the youth through the system is forgetting that it is sound business sense to do so. You might accuse the owners of a lot of things but they are shrewd business types.

We've currently got two first team players from our academy, both of who have just signed long-term contracts and not kicked up a stink about leaving because they are supporters as well as players.

The owners would LOVE more home-grown players coming through and so would most of us as West Ham supporters.

I thought what Allardyce did to our academy against Nottingham Forest was nothing short of disgusting. Then to say 'there's a reason I don't bring these players through- they are not very good' is appalling man-management and if I'd have been Sullivan I'd have fucked him off on the spot.

The whole way Allardyce managed that situation hints to me that Sullivan and Gold were asking him at the time to blood a youngster and the petulant cunt decided to show them a lesson.

He sounds more mad every day, like a fat Caligula. To crow about your magnificent season while you've been displaying relegation form from December through to May is either plain mad or a plea for another management job because he knows he's out on his arse after Newcastle.

Lee Trundle 6:29 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

I think it will always be a bit difficult to judge a manager on long term achievements the way things are at the moment. You won't see results until possibly 4 years after their appointment, and by then they'd be more than likely long gone and whoever is in charge will be taking on that glory/discredit.

If Reece Burke goes on to become a first team player for us, will Allardyce be praised for bringing him through into the team? No.

Alex V 6:20 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

>>> Alex V - The average reign of a Premier League manager is 1 season. You really shouldn't be surprised that any manager in that league is focusing on their short term goals.

I'm not that surprised. But imo good managers tend to last longer. Or get picked up by better clubs.

What has happened at most clubs is that the longer-term goals get handed to DoFs and the equivalent. With the manager or first-team coach basically focussing on the short-term results and supporting the longer-term policies as instructed.

That's why I support that change, and have done for many years - because it relieves us of these hideous old school managers who only care about the next result and have little clue how to look beyond it in any meaningful way.

Trevor B 6:14 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

Lee Trundle 6:12 Mon May 18

Alex V 6:13 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

Trevor B 6:09 Mon May 18

And every time you've made that point, I've said I agree with you. I honestly don't get what point you're making. Obviously anyone who employs (what I consider to be) a bad manager has made a mistake, it goes without saying.

Lee Trundle 6:12 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

Alex V - The average reign of a Premier League manager is 1 season. You really shouldn't be surprised that any manager in that league is focusing on their short term goals.

Trevor B 6:09 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

I'm not twisting anything alex. im not saying he is a great manager, by god far from it, but i think a manager can only operate within the parameters of what he is tasked with delivering. it looks to me that he has not been tasked with delivering any type of youth development, and that blame lays solely at the feet of our owners. thats it.

Alex V 6:06 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

Trevor B 5:58 Mon May 18

Stop twisting what I write - it's tedious. I've criticised the owners on that issue longer than anyone else on here. But this is a thread about Allardyce.

If you just want to solely blame the owners then fine, but you're just giving a bad manager an excuse imo.

Baggins 6:04 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

Brentford - Bolton played utterly shit football the entire time he was there. That is not a myth.

We have, in the main, played the same way. Lots of posters kept telling me the style would EVOLVE, 'like it did at Bolton'. I kept saying that was bollocks and anyone who actually watched Bolton at the time would agree.

Its four seasons now. Are we going to EVOLVE anytime soon? I wouldn't want to miss it.



This manager has a default, negative, safety first, attitude. He always has done and he always will. His teams will be awful to watch and that isnt going to change. And this isnt hindsight, some of us pointed this out the day he was employed.

Trevor B 5:58 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

It's not important if our owners don't give a toss about youth development and instead want to focus on short term top flight survival???

wow, just wow. i would suggest it is incredibly important.

Alex V 5:57 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

Trevor B 5:48 Mon May 18

Agreed again. But you ask 'whose fault is that?' but apportioning blame is really not that important. All we have to do is look at what we think the tenets of good management should be, and if we think Allardyce delivers few of them then he is simply a bad manager.

That is my conclusion. Allardyce is just a bad manager. Damaging short-termism is only one of his many weaknesses. The owners have realised this far too late I agree.

Trevor B 5:48 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

V

Whose fault is that? Of course you will say Sam, but if his mandate form the owners is centred solely around premiership survival then they have to shoulder the majority of the blame. if, on the other hand, his goals were also youth development, then he should have been tinned a long time ago. but he wasnt so i think its safe to assume that the owners are/were primarily concerned with their own short termism.

Eerie Descent 5:47 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

Full Claret Jacket 5:34 Mon May 18

I think he'd get cut a MASSIVE amount of credit from most of our fanbase if he was just honest.

Alex V 5:46 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

Trevor B 5:42 Mon May 18

Agreed. But this is a thread about Allardyce. And his short-termism has been utterly corrosive to the club imo.

Lee Trundle 5:43 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

It's hardly surprising that managers are given short term goals, is it?

They're barely around long enough to achieve any kind of long term goal.

Trevor B 5:42 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

V

perhaps you missed the bit about short term targets? if all the owners are interested in is short term results then its down to them.

, 5:41 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

We don't know precisely what the original BFS brief was but youth development would have been a small part of it at best. Fact is the owners bear all the responsibility for youth recruitment and development.

Alex V 5:38 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

>>> if managers are given short term contracts and short term targets then you cannot really blame them for short termism.

Of course some managers would assume a responsibility to promote the long-term health of the club whatever the length of their contract. Rather depends on whether the manager manages for the good of the club or for their sole benefit.

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